HPM 100 revisited, at "The Shrine of the Vintage Pioneer"

this is an excerpt from a rant i posted last July ...

well Virginia, yes someone did enlighten me, and no, there is no Santa Claus.

after the Affordable $$ Audio meet outside of Portland yesterday, i made the trip to Mark W.'s place in Silverton, along with JP, Mark B and Al (Danger Boy), in order to visit the "Shrine" in person and more importantly for me, to hopefully answer the question i posed above.

this would be only my second audition of the HPM 100, obviously the first time was not a positive experience, and i was hoping to be pleasantly suprised. the big complaints i had against the HPM 100 were "all sizzle", a harsh, fatiguing, "ear bleed" high end, a boomy, loose and sloppy low end and not much in between. in "The Shrine" they showed me that they are much more than just a kick ass rock-n-roll speaker.

Mark treated us to lp's for the most part, but he did throw on a few cd's too. the first selection was particularly noteworthy, the lp "Brothers in Arms" by Dire Straits. i've heard this album many times through the years but i have never heard it like this. simply stunning, in all respects the sound was spectacular. much of the same followed through the evening, the sound varying only due to the quality of the vinyl that was played.

the cd's all sounded excellent, with "That Mellow Saxaphone" from JP's Mapleshade disk being on par with type of sound from the Dire Straits lp. i've heard this track a handful of times but this was the best i've heard it.

the high end was very clean, showing signs of fatigue only at extreme, abnormally high volume levels. the bass was quick, nice tight and articulate, no sign of flab or boom. the mid's were outstanding, smooth and sweet. i was really impressed with the overall balance of this speaker. the sound was presented with a character of such excitement that i forgot to make note of the speakers imaging and soundstage abilities. suffice to say i didnt notice any deficiancy in these areas, the sound was excellent all around.

so what has made such a big difference from my first experience with the HPM 100 to this? the set up of this system was executed probably better than in any other i've come across, and it shows in the sound. Mark has the speakers tuned and dialed in to match the equipment and the room, using a spectral analyizer to accomplish proper eq, and it has made all the difference in the world.

i have to appologize to the HPM 100 in regards to our first encounter. at the time the speaker was not matched well with the equipment, nor was it properly eq'ed, making for an evaluation that was not done correctly. i didnt give this speaker a fair chance to show me what it is capable of and thats a real shame. i now know what i was missing all this time, lesson learned.

Was it that much of an ordeal to set them up? if it is then I still stick with my original feelings towards the hpm's. Maybe there was something wrong with the hpm;s that we listened to.

elroy

Mark is the only who can definitvely answer that. i do know that mitgating factors determined where the speakers are placed in the room. its from that point that Mark worked his magic.

The HPM 100's need proper set up involving EQ'ing using spectrum analysis in order to sound good. I quite enjoyed them at Mark W's. It also illustrated how capable a vintage Pioneer 12 band EQ can be.

To me, that is a huge negative, most of the speakers I have listened to in the last 4-5 years have been out of the box great sounding speakers. Hardly any tweaking to get them to sound good, almost plug and play so to speak.

On the other hand, some folks like to tweak the nobs and sliders to get "the sound" that is cool too. Just not for me.

elroy

I tend to agree. I don't find HPM-100 to be horrible but they did not do it for me. The highs got to me after a while and I liked the sound of 5012 advents better. I replaced the HPMs with magnepan MGIII. Only one is working and even with only that one playing sitting in the middle of the room I found it to sound far better then my Advents or HPMs on classical or Jazz. The surprising part is most reports of maggie owners claim set up is extreamly important.

So whats my point? I think alot of our opinions has to do with our reference point and what we are use to hearing. Once I have the MGIII fixed and set up properly I will probably wonder how I ever thought the one standing in the middle of the room sounded good.

If one like the west coast sound then HPMs could be the best out there for that style speaker. My ears have always listened to east coast speakers so its probably why I lean towards that sound.

My turn My turn!


The dialing in of the HPM's to me was not an ordeal it was what should be done with any speaker in any setup.

The speakers position within the room could not from a normal point of view be much worse.

The left speaker is on a platform built over top the bottom step of our stairs besides a tall narrow recessed window with a bookcase only a couple feet in front of it that I placed a thin Bass absorbing strip along the edge where the sound hit it. This book case has a LARGE glass door.

A drawing of the layout for the left speaker:


A photo of the left speaker placement finished:



And front view The stand has not had the finish applied yet. It will be an English Chestnut. This photo is from directly in line with the sweet spot.



Details on the construction of this stand can be seen in this gallery

http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/UJ7...eaker%20Spikes/

OK now to the Right speaker This speaker sits in the opening to the Shrine with an antique Walnut sideboard full of china and with a complete 12 piece place setting of antique china sitting on top of it. The sideboard angles away from the speaker just enough to not be a reflective surface.

A Drawing of the right speaker setup:



A photo showing the setup taken from the sweet spot angle:



Details on the construction of this stand can be found here:

http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/UJ7...peaker%20stand/

This stand is anchored directly to the floor with 8) 3" long wood screws the top of the stand slides on and off the base it locks in place very very tight.


Now as to what was done to dial in the HPM's to this very screwy room

1. The speakers are on 10" tall Solid mounted stands angled so that the center line of the speakers points to a spot about 2 feet behind the sweet spot.

2. The speakers are set on target arrow points adjusted to give a 4 degree angle up.

The combo of these two things put the level of the tweeters at the height of the listeners ears sitting in the sweet spot. I used a laser level to adjust this exactly but that was just me eyeballing it would have been as good.

3. I used my Pioneer SG-50 (M) Spectrum Analyzer to adjust the EQ to give the room as measured from the sweet spot a flat (or pretty flat) response to the pink noise generator using the dedicated microphone. I adjusted the EQ part of the analyzer as well as slight adjustments to the amps tone controls to bring this in line.

Here is a photo of the setting used on the SG-50 (M):



Here is the setting used on the amp:



Now I personally find it hard to decide if I adjusted the speakers so they sounded good or if I adjusted for the room the speakers and in. In any case to not adjust for a flat response with any speaker in any room is to hamstring the speaker not allowing it to perform as it was intended.


In my system with my setup my HPM-100s sound very good. Would they sound the same sitting on your floor I seriously doubt it. Does that mean the HPM-100 is not a god speaker NO it means you hadn't set them up properly.

In a world where guys talk for days about the sound improvements gained by changing the outlet covers or suspending their speaker cables up off the carpet. How can something as simple as adjusting the room and speakers to match each other be considered to much work?

I had the guys over so that I would know if what I had done sounded as good to others as it did to me I haven't heard dozens of other speakers and systems in their proper environment so I had no clue what was RIGHT and what wasn't.

So I had some guys over that when combined together had a huge background to pull from.

The bottom line I learned was that my system sounds very good. Is it the Speakers? the AMP/ The the Sources? the DIY cables? the EQ?

YES it is all of those things working together.

Audio is no different the drag racing. You can shove a Huge cam and carb on a car not setup for it and expect it to beat a car with the proper balance of components.

Are HPM-100's the greatest speaker ever made Hell no and they the worst Absolutely not. Can they be setup to perform very very well with a mix of music I think I have shown they can.

If you want proof I can send you my address your welcome to bring you music sit on my couch and listen.

If you do not want to believe they can perform well I don't care. Cause I'm sitting in the sweet spot and I got a big smile on my face.


To Scott Mark John Al and my buddy Ron (who was my control listener for the last changes I had made after installing the new amp) I want to thank you guys very much for having an open mind and a willingness to experience my humble little Pioneer system. Your feedback has given me a number of ideas to make further improvements as well as jazzed me up knowing I'm on the right path. I know you guys were very tired John had driven half way across the wester US to get here we all had a long busy day yet you guys did this for me. I hope we can do it again.

Mark W.

Keeper of "THE SHRINE OF THE VINTAGE PIONEER"

Great write up Mark. I hope you didn't take my post as bashing anyones opinion or HPMs.



Edit: I just noticed the pic where you turned down the bass on the amp. I found this to help my HPMs a lot. I found they sounded best with a Wintec RR1120. The wintec has variable loudness and turning this up a notch or two made them sound more alive.

Eric I take everything on the various forums as part of the discussion I learned long ago that trying to read intent into a post is a waste of time if there is negative intent you don't have to go looking for it it will be right there.

I took your post to be your opinion based on your experience nothing more. If it did anything it just added a little bit to the prodding Elroy did that got me to realize I needed to add the details.

In order to have a constructive discussion you have to have more then one point of view otherwise you have a fan club made up of Koolaid drinkers.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy the sharing of ideas here and on AK it's how I learn.

After all I'm just a silly dump truck driver I do need guidance LOL

Mark W.

Mark, I find the amount of effort and level of detail you've put into the setup of your system quite impressive.

Your use of EQ in your system, which seems to be against the "purist's" norm (heck, many balk at even using tone controls), is, to me, refreshing, and an enjoyable counter-read to the seemingly prevalent "no-touchy" mantra of all controls set flat, otherwise cries of heresy are heard.

I find often I use a minimal amount of controls, turning the bass and treble only slightly to the left or right of center, to combat room deficiencys or speaker charactoristics.

I often wonder once I'm set up in my new place, if I'll forego twiddling the tone controls, maybe even going so far as to run a pre-amp with no bass or treble at all, or if indeed I'll end up incorporating one of my two or three EQs I've got kicking around here.

Now, back to the HPMs. A rightfully famous, or infamous speaker for sure, and worthy of both the praise and scorn and controversy it generates. That's what makes it such a legend.

With Scott's deft ear and impeccable taste, it's interesting to hear his comments on a pair of obviously properly set-up and EQ'd duo of HPMs.

It gives credibility to both the possiblility of EQ as a good thing, and that the HPM 100s are a speaker that strives for greatness, and by design, welcomes some balancing via some judicial use of an EQ.

Heck, the Bose 901s are loved by many, and here's a speaker that by design uses an EQ box to boost elements of the sound.

Now,, off the topic of HPMs, and to focus on the plethora of speakers out there.

I often wonder if any halfway decent designed and built speaker, with obvious coloration to it, or very decisive leanings to either a "west" or "east" coast sound, can be made to sound good to two people with decidedly and drastically different tastes, by using EQs to either balance them to one's personal tastes, or to adapt them to one's unique and personal room, flaws and all.

LOL. I am just a lost college student trying to find my place in this world so I am the last one to get guidance from.

That is unless you are looking for beer.

LOL.

That is unless you are looking for beer.

Always! Just remember the idea should be share ideas and to learn not impose our own ideas like some kind of dogma, We all have Audio Asylum for that LOL

in regards to the HPM 100, i have to say yes. my tastes in sound are very biased towards an east coast and vintage sound. what i found at Mark's was a definate west coast sounding speaker, lots of authority and excitement at higher volumes, that also had a sweet and smooth sound that was very much to my liking.

i disagree and agree.

on the first point, if i were to do this myself, it would be a long, drawn out, painstaking ordeal. i know it really takes very little technical ability to do this much, but even this little bit is outside the scope of my interest in the hobby. do i want the best sound i can get from my system? absolutely, but if i cant get there by following the path of least resistance, i'm willing to compromise.

on the second point i agree completely. one cant expect to get the best from their speakers otherwise. as somebody else once said,

Basically all I did was point them towards the sweet spot and adjust the EQ which took all of 15 minutes with the analyzer. So it really isn't to involved but I understand your point.